Dec. 25, 2021

417: THROWBACK: How to Have Impossible Conversations (January, 2020)

417: THROWBACK: How to Have Impossible Conversations (January, 2020)

How can we have impossible conversations?

On this THROWBACK episode, I play Nostradamus and outline how, in January 2020, how important it would be for us to focus on taking on those sometimes difficult and, dare I say it, impossible conversations.


2020 will certainly present its share of challenges. Among them being that of having tough discussions with our friends, family, coworkers, etc... on issues that are politically and emotionally charged.

To start off the year, I wanted to take a second and go solo to discuss a phenomenal book I've been reading, "How to Have Impossible Conversation: A Very Practical Guide" by Peter Boghossian, where Boghossian outlines strategies to bring people who disagree into useful, productive engagement with one another.

Discussed today are some tools I've used (unintentionally, at that!) from the book, and some real-life examples of me using them both in my personal life and on the show with folks who have vastly disagreements with your favorite host.

And finally, as I mentioned at the close of the show, if you're interested in sharing your story of utilizing some of these techniques yourself, email me at or tag me on social media (@BNicholsLiberty both on Twitter and on Facebook).

My conversation with Keith Rubino from March 2019:

Where to purchase "How to Have Impossible Conversation: A Very Practical Guide":

The Reason Podcast Episode mentioned:

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Brian Nichols  
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Victor Antonio  
selling is all about really it's we're not selling a product you're not selling a service you're not selling. You're not selling whatever you think you're selling a solution you're selling change.

Brian Nichols  
Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show your source for common sense politics on the we are libertarians network as a sales and marketing executive in the greater telecommunications cybersecurity industry, Brian works with C level executives to help them future proof their company's infrastructure for an uncertain future. And in each episode, Brian takes that experience and applies it's the liberty movement. And this is why we talk about being the trusted advisor, you should be able to help us that expert guidance and all the opinions that I'm sure that you have, and help lead them towards not just a decision, but the right decision. Instead of focusing on simply winning arguments or being right. We're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and their application in the world of politics, showing you how to ask better questions, tell better stories and ultimately change people's minds. And now your host, Brian Nichols. Yes, it's here, the year that you're everything just kind of goes wild and crazy to the like, you know, nth degree, or we return to some normalcy. I'm guessing it's the first option. But you know, we'll see what happens. But we're all in this together, folks, as you are joining us for another fun filled season of The Brian Nichols Show. And I am of course, your humble host, Brian Nichols here in The Brian Nichols Show. Now, if you've made it through the first two seasons of The Brian Nichols Show starting way back in 2018, which isn't really that far back then you are a longtime listener of the show. And you know what you've come to expect your The Brian Nichols Show shows are going to educate, enlighten and inform. Now, if you're a new listener, let's say this is your your New Year's resolution are those still things, new year's resolutions? I think they are. But let's just say this is your New Year's resolution to listen to maybe a podcast to learn about something that you were not, you're you weren't really confident about or maybe you want to listen to a podcast to learn more about a particular topic. Or let's say you're listening to this show today, because you want to start listening to a show that's going to challenge your own personal beliefs, then guys, you've picked the best show out there because at The Brian Nichols Show, our goal is to leave you guys every single episode feeling that you've left educated, enlightened and informed. And that comes for for folks on both sides of the aisle. Now if you're a first time listener, The Brian Nichols Show yeah, we're a libertarian small l libertarian podcast. Now granted, I also in working with the Libertarian Party out there with a lot the other podcasters in the libertarian spheres of influence. If you guys are interested in joining the big L Libertarian Party to actually you know, make some substantive changes there. forward slash Brian Nichols show, but if you're here just to learn, write about libertarian ideals or just the ideas and concepts of liberty and how they would look like in a true free society. This is the show for you. But let's say you're coming from maybe a different perspective. Maybe you're coming from the left the middle. I know I have a lot of fans who Listen to the show who come from both the left and the right. This is also a fantastic show for you guys to listen to, because I bring on people from all walks of life. And really my goal is to have difficult conversations with people to end, the show feeling that we will leave, maybe not agreeing. But the very least understanding where each other are coming from. So we can get rid of this, this belief that the person that disagrees with us is is our enemy. Right? So let's kind of start things off this way. Right now, if it's your it's your first time here on The Brian Nichols Show, one of the things that you come to know and love is I have guests on all the time. And you know, the past few episodes actually have just been me, which, again, is going to be another solo episode today. Because I have had the chance to really sit down and enjoy a book for the first time in a long time. And this book is actually it was pointed my way by actually guests we had in the show, Nick Gillespie from Reason magazine, and it's how to have impossible conversations from Peter Bogosian. Now, I first heard Peter, on the reason interview with Nick Gillespie, and he was discussing this book. And as I listened more and more to Peter, kind of explain what what the book is, but also really what the meat of the book is, right. And the meat of the book is, yes, how to have difficult conversations with people because in this has been real, right? It's 2020. And we're going into an election season. I don't know about you, we just finished the holidays. But

if we all have similar families, where politics was one of the main conversation points, I'm sure that you found yourself sitting there biting your tongue more than a few times, I know I myself, I sat there and bit my tongue quite a few times. And it's important to kind of take a step back, as you know, people who are involved in politics, like a lot of us are every single day, just listen to, to what. And this might sound a little rude, but just what your average person thinks. And that's kind of what we've been doing here at The Brian Nichols Show when it comes to not looking at how the average person thinks, but how the other side thinks. And I say other side, it can really refer to any side, it could be the left, it could be the right whatever side you find yourself on the other side. And I want you to be able to better understand where your other side is coming from. Right, because it, I think one thing I found as we look where we are not only just going into an election season here in 2020, but also just by and large, where we are as a country, post 2016. Especially, I mean that the trust in the mainstream corporate media is at an all time low, and rightfully so, right? If you're a media apologist, I'm sorry, there are no excuses to defend the corporate media infrastructure that exists today. And actually, it's become more and more apparent that their goal has been to silence dissenting views, or just alternative forms of media, like independent media. So I think that the days of not only supporting the mainstream media, but defending the mainstream corporate media are long but over. But if you look at beyond that, where we are today, as a country, you've seen the polar divides increase more and more and more. And it really comes down to unfortunately, the two warring parties that are within the the larger American duopoly in our political infrastructure that is a war between the traditional Democratic Progressive left in the country, and the more conservative traditional right in the country. Now, I'm using those, you know, those those descriptions very vaguely and very generally, because that's kind of the caricature that each side only has presented for itself, but also has presented for it's opposing opposing sides as what they believe. And, you know, I guess there's a third of us out there who look at both parties and say, both y'all suck. And we're looking for an alternative, whether that's libertarian. I know, I've had folks on my show who are saying the alternative is democratic socialism. And I say, God, no, that's scary. But I've had people who say, you know, the, the answer is somewhere in the middle. And you know, as a libertarian, I think the answer and I'm confident the answer is no, no liberty, like, just give Liberty a chance. Let people live their lives freely, and just see what happens, right? If 10 years from now, things are wild and crazy. And it's all due to a free market free individual society world. Alright, we'll take a step back, but we haven't had that in. I mean, honestly, we really haven't had that ever. But even in America, I mean that the closest we had was to our founding right, where we went to war over a couple percent tax. Like that's that's kind of that's The closest that we as a society got to, you know, this this idea of liberty and living a truly free lifestyle. And that's why our ancestors came over here was to get away from all that tyranny all that statism. Right. And that's honestly what it is that the tyranny is just statism. And it's being enacted from the use of force, or the threat of force from an overarching state, which in this case, and the United States, as you know, in our United States perspective is is the federal government and state government, and in some cases, local government, governments, especially if you're in a larger municipality, or a city or what have you. So the the point of that was to say, what I want to see from not only just America, by and large, is to get better at having difficult conversations with one another. But it's too for you guys, the the the awesome audience of The Brian Nichols Show, because now, I'm taking a step here on a ledge and saying, I know I've said it once before, but I'm gonna reiterate, I truly believe you guys are one of if not the smartest audience that are out there. Because whenever number one, I get any correspondence from you guys via email, DMS, on Twitter, at vehicles liberty, by the way, I always have respectful, thoughtful dialogue, even if you disagree with a point that was not maybe raised on the show by me, but maybe my guests, everything I receive in commentary from you guys is nothing but positive. It's constructive. It's, it's actually helpful. You know, I use the back not last episode, where is my appearance on via friends against government podcast, but where I was sitting down and discussing kind of, you know, some suggestions I got from the audience, one of them being a pop filter, but also, you know, people saying that they like having the differing views or voices or opinions on the show, because it really helps you kind of number one, better rationalize why you believe in as a you but us we why we believe what we believe. But it also helps our political opposites to better grasp and understand where they come from. And conversely, conversely, the right word, will go with it. Conversely,

when you consider the chance for the other side, that and here are our positions, in our own words, I think that really adds a lot of credibility to our ability to have a conversation, but also to show that we're not just you know, the, the straw man bumper sticker caricature that's been created of who we are as libertarians, we're not, we're not the, you know, the smoke weed, you know, anti anti cop, caricature has been painted by the folks in the right. But conversely, in the left, we're not I know, I'm personally right there. Conversely, on the left, we're not the, you know, the anti, the anti poor person, you know, pro, big business zealots that they frame us to be. So what I want us to all get better at is to be able to have difficult conversations with people. So that kind of goes to the point of the book I've been reading, which is, again, like I mentioned how to have impossible conversations from Peter Bogosian. And this book has been nothing short of amazing, because it really frames what I've been doing here on The Brian Nichols Show, since really the beginning. And that is trying to have difficult conversations with people. I'm not again, leave the show, feeling that we agree. But just to better understand where the other side's coming from. And one episode in particular, that I am gonna toot my own horn here, because it's my show, so I'm gonna do it. But no, it was when I had Keith Rubino on the show, and it was a show ask a Democratic socialist, which I'll be sure to include in the show notes. You guys can go ahead and check this episode out. Because what I did was I asked you guys to send me some questions that you had, that you legitimately want to ask Keith. Because Keith is a self described democratic socialist, he is a rabid rabid Bernie Sanders supporter. And actually, I'm gonna be having him on the show very, very soon to discuss, you know, can Bernie Sanders actually win this thing? And we're going to look at a recent episode with Dave Smith part of the problem podcast and kind of walk through what Keith's keys perspective is and also his his kind of his commentary. Let's, let's say right on Dave and Robbie, the fire Bernstein's commentary over on part of the problem. I honestly think that Dave has given some of the best objective analysis of these Democratic debates right up there actually with with Tom woods, Tom Wood, Tom Wood has been doing a great a great segment for the Democratic debates with Lew Rockwell and they've been breaking down the debates so we don't have to So thank you, gentlemen, for that. Um, but with with with David and Robbie over at part of the problem, they've been kind of taking a much more high level approach right and looking much more at The different forces and players within the Democratic primary, both those who are running, but also the behind the scenes stuff, the political infrastructure that you know, is, is supporting particular candidates or hurting particular candidates. But anyways, back to the the main point with Keith. So the reason I want to have Keith on the show was because he just in my interactions with Keith, and actually I was introduced to Keith, by Philip Paige who was running for New York State Assembly up in New York State at the same time that Keith ironically, was also running. Ironically, coincidentally, one of the two was running for New York State Assembly as a Democrat in a neighboring district. And I it's actually funny how I been talking to Phillip. And I noticed in a thread there was, you know, Rubino and Isaac, I know that name, I don't know how I know that name. And I saw him commenting, and then just out of nowhere films like oh, by the way, if you're ever looking to, to interview a really, you know, just a kind, but also not rabid, democratic socialism by rabid in this case. I mean, someone who does, you know, if you are anything, you know, to the right of Karl Marx, you're, you know, a fascist, that's not Keith Keith is very level headed. I think his his, I think his ideas are,

how, afraid this, his ideas are well intentioned. But I firmly believe that the solutions that he and also, you know, the folks in the left have presented to solve, yes, the very real issues that we face, I think that those solutions are not only very ineffective, but historically have shown to actually exacerbate the issues that they were, in fact trying to solve. So when I had Keith on the show, I wanted to really figure out how did he get to where he is, both in terms of his ideology, but also, you know, in terms of what he is seeing as the solutions to the problems that we're both agreeing on. And one thing I think that was really, that was really a successful part of that episode, was one of the main focuses that's actually discussed in in the book,

which is never assume that the person you're talking to has negative intentions from from their side, right. One of the common issues I see done by both those on the left, and also those on the right, is they approach any conversation with someone from the opposite side, with the with the usually I say this, I'm being general here, but usually with the belief that they are approaching this conversation from a sense of malice. And I think we have to entirely stop, just just full stop having that belief, both on the left and the right again. Because that's one thing that when I interviewed Keith, I made it a point not to do and I feel that we left that conversation, feeling that yeah, we we didn't agree at all. I mean, we agreed on the problems. We had no real, you know, coming together in terms of solutions. But I better understood how Keith got to where he was. And I think honestly, that Keith was able to leave the show better understand where I was coming from. Now, I've actually said this in an episode I believe is over on Stephen ignoramus show. And back when I was over there, you know, one of the main goals, when I had that conversation with Keith wasn't to try to change his mind. But really, it was to be a rational, logical, kind, compassionate voice, that would present the the pro Liberty side of the coin, but would actually be listened to by people on the left, that would hopefully, you know, just plant that seed of doubt in their mind that maybe this caricature that they had built up as libertarians wasn't in fact, all that they had thought it was going to be. And that's one thing I think that is, again, go forward and 2020 we all collectively have to do better at is is being able to start conversations without believing that the other side is is no with with ill intentions at the onset of the conversation. But also, I think it's really important for all of us to understand and appreciate why do we have these conversations with people to begin with? Is your conversation being done to when is your goal to start a Facebook back and forth of someone to win, to to get likes to reaffirm what you believe? Or are you trying to actually find some common ground Are you trying to help better frame what you believe to someone who doesn't really know what you believe they know the story? Amen, of what you believe, as it's been presented to them by, you know, their their commentators in the left, or, Hey, even on the commentators on the right, Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson have a completely different, you know, caricature of libertarians than Bernie Sanders would have. Right. But both sides are creating caricatures. And it's done because it's a lot easier to attack a straw man. That is to have a conversation with someone and actually try to understand now now here's the truth, right? I would get 1000s more listeners by making every single episode and attack video like, like a Ben Shapiro destroys Brian Nichols obliterates Marxist XYZ. Listen here, like, no, that's not what we do here at The Brian Nichols Show. And Aussie neither should you, right. If you are a member of this audience, I don't want you guys going onto Facebook and doing that. I don't want you going on Twitter. And doing that. If you're engaging with someone on social media, or even in real life, right, it could be a co worker, it could be a member of your family, like I was mentioning earlier, we all just came back from from the holidays, we know what it's like. But if you're able to get away from the belief that every conversation with someone who we disagree with has to be contentious, it actually take a second to say, Well, why why do you believe that? Can you I don't understand helped me better understand what you believe. And I'll give an anecdote here. You know, I had a conversation with someone over this break, and they came into the conversation, firmly believing that if you were a Republican, I'm not I'm not being facetious here, I'm not trying to, you know, make this some big fish story. But no, this is literally what they said, if you voted for Donald Trump, or if you're a Republican, then you are a bad person. Right now that that is a hell of a position to start from. And I, it kind of actually made me laugh a little bit because like, Holy hell, like that's, this is quite a statement to make to, you know, just completely characterize one half, maybe a third of our nation as just bad people. So I said, why? Like, why, what makes you say that, and I got him to kind of start to walk through in his view of, you know, why they're bad people. Now, it's Trump's personal character flaws it's in without trying to regurgitate the entire conversation, it starts going from a conversation is started off saying, the GOP and Trump if you vote for Trump, or a GOP, you're a bad person to a conversation about democracy, and is democracy a good thing or a bad thing? Because what I've made it a point to do was just continually to ask questions, and to try and number one for myself better understand where they are coming from, but also get him to better rationalize himself, how he arrived to the positions that he arrived at. So it was it was interesting, because when we would discuss, you know, the ability for someone to live their lives freely, he would agree. And I said, Okay, so why are you a democracy? And he's like, because I was like, Okay, so, you know, in this situation, if there's you, me, and, you know, Bill down the street, and Bill and I vote that you'll be, we think you have too much money, and we're going to take that from you. Technically, it's democracy. It's a two to one, does that make it right? And it's, I don't know, for me, it's kind of a fun feeling. When you can you can see, like, the error lights light up on somebody's eyes, because they're like, Oh, I, I didn't expect that I would have that question to be answered by myself at some point in this conversation. And he didn't answer, which actually, it kind of caught me by surprise that he didn't even have an answer to that. Because he didn't know how to answer because also, it was like, his entire worldview was being challenged not by me, but by himself. Because if you're able to frame a question, in a way that makes someone explain and rationalize their position, now you're starting to like work. It's like it's like a reverse osmosis. Maybe, I don't know. I'm not a scientist. It's, it's, it's fun, because you can actually see them start to have to, like, peel back the layers of like, alright, so you know, here I am, as you know, Karl Marx Communist Manifesto carrying leftist. And I'm saying okay, let's start to say, I know you weren't born a communist leftist Marxist, you know, Communist Manifesto, manifesto, manifesto in hand, you leftist progressive. I know you're not I quite frankly, I know that you weren't raised that way either. So let's kind of figure out what went wrong. But where did this this path start? And Work backwards in terms of like, what issues did you identify as you started to go down this rabbit hole that you were like yeah progressivism, leftism, socialism, Marxism or the answer like, that's even for friends in the left like that's that's a very steep like slippery slope that you have you suddenly from the top floor slipped all the way down to the basement, like that's a big big drop off from just saying like, I think that government should be there because I don't trust people like, that's a whole separate argument, but I definitely hear that from my friends on the left, but to actually get him to explain and rationalize where he got to his beliefs and actually, in many cases, unable to, to rationalize his beliefs. That's something that, you know, I want you guys to be able to take to take away from the show and utilize in your own lives, is to to really take what we do here at The Brian Nichols Show on a daily basis. And, and use it to not beat the you know, the leftist or the the conservative in your in your life. But to better understand them to try and get them to rationalize their ideas. Now, here's the reason why I particularly like this approach is because when you start to you have to rationalize your positions, and you have to be logically based in going from point A to point B and how you go from, you know, one position that you hold to another position in terms of maintaining your principles, maintaining your ideology, you, you're always gonna win as a libertarian, like, like, you will always win. It's, it's, it's the best because I mean that I say this as a libertarian, my bias, right? We will always win in the court of public opinion. Because at the end of the day, our ideas are based on morality, it's based on you, the individual being being able to own yourself, the right to life, liberty and property, right. That's really at the fundamental basis of libertarianism, property rights. And yes, non aggression. So if we can, if we can always work back to that point of being, like some common agreement and ask people like, do you feel bill that I should be able to vote with me? And you know, a couple of my friends, three to one over you that you need to? I don't know, you have to wear a blue hat on Tuesdays? That's the rule, because we pass that rule. Does that feel like that's a good rule? Now, you can say no, but guess what, three plus one? Or sorry, Three versus one? Guess Guess who? Who's gonna make you do it? Beside that has three the democratic answer, right, that three person majority, they they democratically were able to pass something that they believe is moral is just is right. But it's infringing on Bill's ability to wear whatever hat he wants, or even if he doesn't want to wear a hat, when a bill doesn't want to wear a hat on Tuesdays, he says, You know what? I want to wear a visor. You know what, I don't want to wear a hat at all. I don't wear anything on my head. Should he should he be forced to wear a hat? Because, you know, a majority of people said he should? I don't think so. All right, well, maybe bill should leave a bill should move out of that commute. What if Bill can't move? Right? What if it's illegal? What do they make illegal for Bill to move? Because he doesn't want to face that silly hat law? Well as in I'm not trying to poke fun of Keith. But when I had a conversation with Keith, he actually said, That's okay.

Now, it's one thing to actually say, like from a purely principled position, you find that okay, all agree to disagree? I think your answer is morally incorrect. But if if you're going to be strong your convictions and say, You should be forced out. Now, granted, it's not in this situation that I wasn't saying to Keith, should bill be forced to wear that hat on Tuesday, but rather as a saying, you know, Will, should shouldn't people be able to to move away from states that are taxing them, you know, by some crazy standard? And he said, Well, no, we that's why we should have a national federal standard. It's an okay, well, what if they move to the Cayman Islands or to Ireland or Saudi Arabia? Do people move there? I don't know. But what if they wanted to do that? They shouldn't be allowed to. What? Like that's, that's at least a principal position. And I respect the hell out of Keith for saying that. But a huge whopping bot here, right? I fundamentally disagree based on principles based on ideology, based on morals. Honestly, I, I vehemently disagree with that belief. But I was able to get him to rationalize and actually stay true to what he believes now, when I say all right, He has a win on the court of public opinion. It's not a matter of trying to, you know, say, well, Keith, that's just a silly position to hold. It's more to let him say what he believes. Let me say what I believe. And then people listening to it can say, Hmm, you know, shouldn't be forced to wear a hat on Tuesdays. Like, does that seem moral? Does that seem right? Should I be forced to wear a hat on Tuesdays? What if? And hear me out a big what if the other side that I think is literally Hitler, that they gain power? What if they make me wear a Magga hat every single day. And suddenly, it makes sense, because they don't want a world where that's the reality. Because I don't want that world either. And that's the best part is that I can stay logically and fundamentally secure and sound in my beliefs and in my arguments. But they can't, in that situation, they can't unless they are going to agree that they should be forced to wear a Magga hat. Right. That's it. And now it's on them. And now they have to make that choice. But now we're actually giving them a real fundamental difference between what we believe and what we buy, we again, I'm using that that grand we have, if you're on the left, if you're on the right, whatever argument you're giving, now, you're forcing them to grapple with the position. Now Now you're forcing them instead of to to answer the straw man position, right? You're a libertarian. So you just want big business to hurt the poor people. Yeah, well, you're a dirty, rotten communist, and you just want to cripple America, get rid of all of our corporations and businesses, and everybody's been living at the hand of the government, and then we're all going to get poor and starve. Right? That's, that's, that's usually the extent of, you know, really digging deep on Twitter, or, honestly, on Facebook, for that matter. But to actually get past that, and to address the root of the issues, you're going to get a lot more people to hear what you're presenting as your side. If you're, if you're helping them on this journey along the way. Scolding, castigating blaming, that doesn't work. think the last time that you were like, You know what, that person really called me a mother effer. And he was right. Yeah. You know what? I'm on board. No, nobody does that. They're like, you know, that guy really made a really good point. Huh. And then you sit there and you think about for an hour and you're like, I go to the gym. And he's like, in between sets. And he's like, that point, though, was really good. To drive home. He's eaten dinner. He's like, Tim it. How can I overdo what he's done? Not not overdue. How can I undo? How can I undo this? See that has been planted within the confines of my brain. And honestly, guys, chances are, he can't, because once that seeds been planted, it's there. He knows. It's like, damn it. I now have information I did not have before. And I can't I can't argue against the straw man, because I know that that's not really what they believe.

So that's helpful. Do you guys feel that this episode today will help not just you but maybe will help some of your family and friends have very difficult conversations with people? Well, if that's the case, then here's what you should do. Number one, you need to share today's episode with your family and friends, please guys, social media, Facebook, Twitter, tag me at B. Nichols liberty. And my challenge to you this week is to invite five of your friends or family to listen to today's episode. I think that this episode, believe it or not of all the episodes out of almost 100 episodes that we have aired here at The Brian Nichols Show, not counting bonus episodes, almost 100 episodes. I daresay this may be the one episode truly the one episode that left right conservative, progressive, Libertarian, socialist, communist anarchists. Everybody can listen to the show, and walk away feeling that they have learned something that they can utilize in their own lives. So that's the episode or if you want to become knowledge like myself, read the awesome book, How to have impossible conversations. A very practical guide by Peter Bogosian. It is an awesome book. It's available anywhere you buy your books, and sincerely I cannot recommend this book enough. But also I honestly cannot recommend what I've been talking about today enough. This is something you're going to utilize every single day on You're talking to people, it's going to make you better. And I think you're actually going to find it's going to it's going to better your relationships with friends with families a significant other. So please take this information today utilize it. But if you enjoyed today's episode, let me know. Email me at Brian at Brian Nichols You can also email me at Brian at Brian Nichols show comm if you're interested in being a sponsor for an episode of The Brian Nichols Show. Now here is an absolutely fantastic stat. And I want to thank our dear leader Chris spangle. Over at the we are libertarians network for sharing this information back over the new year. And that is now here's a fun fact 60% of consumers looked up a product or service that was advertised on a podcast, and 25% made a purchase. So if you have a product, if you have a good a service, whatever it may be, and you want to reach one of the fastest growing Liberty audiences out there, email me Brian at Brian Nichols I love to talk to you hear what you have. And hey, we can work it out. I love to have you be a sponsor on The Brian Nichols Show. So guys, with that being said, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for joining us here on another Yes, fun filled episode of The Brian Nichols Show. Guys, it's been a blast. I'm looking forward to a phenomenal year being 2020 to have more awesome guests, people who are far smarter than me talk about really interesting things that you guys have you guys care about. And you guys want to learn more about. So with that signing off for The Brian Nichols Show here on January 3 2020. We'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to The Brian Nichols Show. Find more episodes at the Brian Nichols If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe. Want to help us reach more people? Give the show a five star review and tell your friends to subscribe to find us at Brian Nichols and download the show on Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow me on social media at V. Nichols liberty and consider donating to the show at the Brian Nichols forward slash support. The Brian Nichols Show is supported by viewers like you. Thank you to our patrons Darryl Schmitz, Morris Stanley, Michael Lima, Michel Mankiewicz, Cody, John's, Fred de caster, and the we're libertarians network.

trust the experts we're all in this together it saves one life raise your hand if you heard any of those tiresome phrases over the past year and a half. I know my hand is currently raised millions of people across dozens of industries are labeled on essential and forced the lockdown with livelihoods in futures crushed in an instant and as government has continued to expand its power and leverage fear to turn neighbor against neighbor a group of filmmakers have taken a stand and are determined to help set the record straight on the importance of following the actual science of the pandemic follow the science on lockdowns and liberty from the sound mind create a group is a brand new Docu series highlighting the stories of those negatively impacted over the past year and a half by ineffective government policies enacted in the name of following the science with noted experts like Nick Hudson from Panda the pandemic data analytics organization healthcare policy advisors like Scott Atlas and telling stories of business owners families and just your average everyday person harmed by these government mandates all the science on lockdowns and liberty is giving us a chance to make sure the true stories of the pandemic are told so please help us at The Brian Nichols Show in supporting the sound mind creative group with notable figures in the liberty movement like Dr. Tom Woods donating 1000s of their own dollars to this project. You know just how important this project is. So head the Brian Nichols forward slash follow the science to donate and catch their brand new trailer to the Docu series one more time. That's Brian Nichols forward slash follow the science

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