949: The Immigration Debate NO ONE Wants to Have

Brian Nichols  0:01  
All right. And with that, joining me here on The Brian Nichols Show from young voices, we're talking about Coptic Christians. David Mendoza, welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. How you doing good? Thank you for having me. Just want to make sure folks heard me right. I said, Coptic not not cop Christians. We're not talking about the police forces, but no, we're talking about how we look at, you know, when we're dealing with minorities and dealing with respecting the rights of minorities, we're going to talk a little bit more about that and look at Coptic Christians as a use case. But David, before we get into the meat and potatoes of today's episode, do us a favor. Introduce yourself to The Brian Nichols Show audience and why you're focused on these not gun carrying, badge Todd and Christians, but rather Coptic Christians.

Speaker 1  0:42  
Yeah, thank you. I'm studied historical theology in graduate school, so my background really is in religion theology. I'm interested in history of ideas, religious trends and different Christian groups around the globe. Coptic Christianity is something that I think most people don't really do a whole lot of research on at the graduate school level. So it's something I'm really interested in, kind of exploring and getting myself more familiar with, especially as it relates to public policy issues. So yeah, that's, that's kind of that love

Brian Nichols  1:17  
it. Well, let's do this. Set the stage for us, right, because you're right lots of folks, your yours truly included, we're not familiar with these Coptic Christians or cops, as you you so affectionately call them in your article, over at Real Clear religion. So David set the stage for us, who are the Coptic Christians, and why is this a focus of today's conversation when it comes to looking at how we can start to talk about folks of different ethno religious groups.

Speaker 1  1:44  
Yeah, the Coptic Christians really are an ancient Christian group. They go back to St Mark, the evangelist, at least that's how they trace their history, going really back to that apostolic era of Christianity. And it's really that era that shapes much of the Coptic churches, teachings and practices, even to this day, one scholar described that era as really the bridge between the Egypt of the pyramids and the pharaohs and the modern state of Egypt. But they have existed in Egypt as really their own distinct ethnic and religious community that is a minority today after the Muslim conquest of Egypt and bringing in the modern state of Egypt. So they still exist, though they are a minority within the broader Egypt population. Yeah, I would,

Brian Nichols  2:40  
I would bet that would be a fair thing to assume. Talk to us then about what they're facing over in the Middle East.

Speaker 1  2:48  
They face a number of things. The Coptics are one minority group among a number of minority groups in the Middle East, and we tend to not really pay much attention to minorities like the Druze or the Kurds and the Coptics face a number of persecutions. I guess you could say they're not really able to travel or participate in the broader society like the rest of the Muslim population is able to. In fact, when I met one scholar who was from Egypt and dedicated most of her life to this topic as a Coptic. One of the things that she showed us all at the summit was a tattoo on her wrist of a cross. And she told us that if you go to Egypt, anybody from Egypt is that is a Coptic is going to have this tattoo given to them, basically, when they're an infant. The the the idea behind that is that if your child ever goes missing, they'll be able to identify it as a Coptic child, because the threat of them being taken and proselytized by a Muslim family is very real over there, and it happens all the time. So in order to maintain this level of distinction and protection for their children. They mark them with a tattoo of a cross at a very, very early

Brian Nichols  4:05  
age. Wow, man. Like, I know we're going to dig into to how we in America can understand better, like how to have these dialogs. But just like the discrepancy David, of what you're painting from a picture of living the life as a Coptic Christian in Egypt to you know, even living your your life as a minority in America, it does seem like it is almost different worlds, because you can't even really begin to like to fathom that type of of situation happening here in the USA. No,

Speaker 1  4:38  
yeah, at least in modern times, we're pretty disconnected from the era of Jim Crow and other systemically racist institutions like that, or systems like that. That's

Brian Nichols  4:48  
important context, by the way. I'm talking about modern America, not going back to the 1800s but yeah, you're spot on. Yes,

Speaker 1  4:54  
yeah, no. So yeah, no, in our, in our, in today's context, yeah, that'd be it's very unfamiliar to us. So the idea that we would be restricted or have to mark our children in that way due to the threat of persecution or having our children taken is that's, yeah, it's foreign to us. It's something we're not used to.

Brian Nichols  5:13  
Man, because there's so many different ways to go with this conversation. Because, I mean, I look back to Glenn Beck, right? Glenn Beck, I've listened to Glenn Beck since back when I was a wee little lad. And Glenn Beck has been known for his his philanthropic work, specifically back I forget the things the Syrian the Syrian civil war, and trying to get Christians out of Syria and to see just the threats to their livelihoods, the threats to their to their way of life. You know, it was, it was very real and and to see in America like that, modern day context doesn't really exist, right? Like, it's very hard to to put into perspective what it would be like today in America to face such persecution simply for what you believe or or you know who you worship. So I guess you know, in terms of looking at your article here again, what you wrote over at Real Clear religion, like, help paint the picture, to help us understand in a more modern sense of, like, what a day in the life of a Coptic Christian, or just a minority over in the Middle East, for example, like, what does that look like? So we can really, like, you know, see, smell, taste, touch, and feel these very real issues and problems that, you know, the minorities, in this case, the Catholic Christians face on a daily basis.

Speaker 1  6:33  
Yeah, no, they they definitely feel the threat of being a of being a minority. They're not able to practice their religion in the way that they would like to. They've shut down a number of Coptic churches in Egypt, and that number is increasing. And because of that pressure to religious conformity with the majority religion being Islam, a lot of Coptics have actually started migrating out of Egypt or immigrating out of Egypt since the 1960s and 70s, really just in search of a place where they can worship freely, but also not live with the threat of being tracked and monitored. And where are they going? By the way, I'm just curious there. Well, one of the places they're going is to the United States, and so we've seen an influx of Coptic immigrants since that time. Actually, the current population is roughly about 500,000 in the United States. Wow, yeah. And so they, they're, they're growing. And I live in California, and part of my piece touches on the the population I hear in California, which is a growing presence. And they sort of caught my attention because I've lived all over Southern California and Northern California, in every town that I've lived in. I've I've lived near a Coptic Church, and so I've just kind of wondered, you know, that I don't remember seeing that a whole lot growing up, and maybe I was just, you know, not paying attention. But they just seem to be a much bigger presence than they than they were. Meeting more Coptic people in the area, co workers, of friends of mine and whatnot. It's, it's just becoming, it's, it's becoming more present for I think, a lot of Californians in particular. So

Brian Nichols  8:19  
you opened up a conversation here that I do think the average American can really start to to have a piece of the conversation as well, and that has this conversation around immigration, right? Because we saw over the past 510, years, immigration really rear its ugly head here in America, not from the practice of immigration, but rather the debate thereafter. Right now, I am a small l libertarian. I have firmly believed in the rights of living a government of personal property rights, right? You know, don't hurt people. Don't take their stuff. Let's go back to the matt kitty, you know, version of what it means to be a libertarian. And I look at the modern discourse around immigration, and I understand, from a libertarian perspective, the reservations, because we see a lot of folks who are coming over to America, not for necessarily a quote, unquote better way of life, but rather in pursuit of and let's just call it from where it is, a means to melt from the American welfare state. Now folks can debate, you know that that conversation all day long. That's fine. I'm just calling it as I see it, but what we're talking about here are the conflict Christians. It does speak to a very, very different perspective, right? We're talking about folks who are coming over to America who, I would dare say, likely share a lot of our values and also sound like they are trying to become contributing American members of society. So help us in the even not just the small l libertarian world or classical liberal world. Let's just look at this from a modern political lens here. David like, how does this Coptic Christian conversation and all that therein relate to our immigration debate today? And how. What do you think we can learn, I guess, when we're talking about immigration and debating immigration, and what can we learn from the manner in which COVID Christians and also other other minorities who share our values, who are coming to America in seek of a better life, but also in seek a refuge?

Speaker 1  10:15  
Yeah, no, I do agree. I do think that there is a significant number of folks that come over here looking to use the resources that the American welfare state has to offer. And I do think that is unfortunate. I don't I think the Coptic community in particular comes here primarily for religious freedom purposes. In fact, the Coptic Orthodox dioceses of Southern California posted a statement right after Donald Trump won his election, saying, We thank you for your acknowledgement. In a reference to a tweet that President Trump posted seeking to court this population, saying, you know we see you. We acknowledge you. We want to give support to you as a as a growing presence here in the United States. They congratulated him, and they said, We thank you, and we want to just put it out there that we have, we we have these same shared values of Americans. You know, we believe in religious liberty, we believe in strong family values. And I think that that is a representative statement on behalf of a very large segment of the population that is coming over here, the Coptics also tend to not really get a lot of recognition in the media unless there's some sort of attack on them, the most famous of which happened in 2000 I want to say 14, when ISIS attacked those Coptic men on a beach, and the horrific footage that came out of that. And so I think that if, if this population is only within our sort of imagination or our consciousness, whenever there's a disaster that's launched against them, it also tends to make us short sighted. As far as they, they are a presence here, and they're building lives that are hard working, and they are contributing very well to the broader society, but they are fleeing persecution as well. So I think that that should, I think that that should help us in our in our perceptions of them as we welcome them into the country, in these, in these growing numbers, and, yeah, I think the immigration question is important. It this is, I don't see this as a group that is represented by that group that's coming over for that to sort of take advantage of the welfare state. I do see them as hard working folks that just they want to come here and be free.

Brian Nichols  12:45  
So how do we? How do we, you know, how do we walk this very, very fine line, right? Because I see what you're articulating for the Coptic Christians as like a no brainer, yes, let them come to America. Let them integrate into our society. Let them what was it? The old expression back when we were in grade school, David, it was like, you know, we're a melting pot, right? Like everybody comes in and then we assimilate. We take all these different cultures, and they come to America, and they learn the American culture, and it creates something beautiful. And that notion has been just absolutely destroyed over the past five years, and like so many folks have a knee jerk reaction now to just the ideas of immigration, specifically from folks who don't talk like me or think like me or look like me. So when we, when we look at the kind of discrepancy between, as we outlined here, folks who they are very much in pursuit of becoming American true in, in its truest form, right? Like, especially from a principled standpoint and a value standpoint, relative to the other side of the aisle, right? The folks who are looking for that free ride, how do we, how do again? How do we walk this fine line of being able to say yes, yes to you captain Christians who are trying to, you know, to actually assimilate into the American culture, and then no to name, you know, name, just free loader here. Like, how do we? How do we, I guess, differentiate, but also, how do we enforce from a policy prescription? How do we enforce who is coming into America without stepping on good folks, right, that the folks who maybe do align with our values more. And I don't have the answer to that. I'm just curious what your

Speaker 1  14:26  
thoughts are. Yeah, I do think we need a policy that looks at the person, the individual person. We need to make it not so difficult for people to come here to seek a better life. But we also need to, I think, lessen the incentives, or reduce the incentives of the welfare state that bring people over here, just simply looking to use up all these resources, whether that's cutting back some of these programs, but also creating incentives for people that do come here to work and make it easier for them to become citizens. I think. Think, I think part of that incentive to use the or to not become a legal citizen is, in fact, from the just the length of time it takes to become a naturalized citizen. You there's so many hoops that you have to jump through. It's, it's years and years and years in the process, and so which, by

Brian Nichols  15:18  
the way, I mean interrupt, but like, and this is also why the 14th Amendment has come as a conversation when we're looking at birthright citizenship, because, to your point, right? It feels like you either have to spend a lifetime to become an American citizen or show up and have a kitten. There you go. It's like there is no middle ground of rationality or reason or logic, or, you know, actual like coming together on common sense. It just feels like we've adopted both ends of the spectrum, with, you know, the bell curve right there in the middle of folks saying, what gives? Yeah,

Speaker 1  15:46  
no, I think that that's true. The all these questions are being raised right now, and I think a healthy way, it's been prolonged for too long, and so this, this really may just be a time where we take a look at, okay, what? What are the incentives? What kind of different incentives should we implement, and how should we make it easier for people to come here that are just looking to become contributing members of society? And, you know, true Americans and so no, I definitely see that as this may be an opportunity to help change our attitude, or shape our attitude towards a healthier immigration policy actually, well,

Brian Nichols  16:24  
and let's, let's address the the porcupine in the room. We have a lot of libertarians who listen to the show David, classically liberal, small l liberal, Big L libertarians. And I guess you look at where so I would say more the big L libertarian camp is, and this has changed over the past few years, but much more on board with the idea of open borders. And this has been a notion that's been really promoted by a lot of our friends in the cultural left, the progressive left, for decades. And now you go on to the more like libertarian perspective, and you're hearing it from a pseudo principled argument of saying, Well, no government should have no means to limit my ability to move freely. Right to if I want to go work somewhere, I should be able to go work somewhere. If I want to go live somewhere, well, I should be able to go live somewhere. Gosh darn it, right? And that argument has seemed to kind of fall on deaf ears in 2024 so I guess to those more open border folks, David, help me make the argument to them that we need to re examine things from a more what I would say, pragmatic approach. Or am I off base? Am I off base in saying that no open borders is completely goofball?

Speaker 1  17:40  
No, I think that you're right. I think that we can't open borders is not an option. We need to have a strong border. We need to be able to filter who's coming in here. Because the reality is that we can't go back 100 years when things, when people were flooding into the country, contributing to the better society. It's just a different world now. And so because of that, we have to change. We have to adapt, and we the threat of criminals and terrorists coming over here is a real problem. And because of that, we do need to have a strong border. And we, we knew we other countries also have strong borders, so I don't really see why it's out of bounds for us to all of a sudden not be held at the same standard that the rest of the world is. No I think that we need to have a good rule of law. We need to have law and order, and that includes having a strong southern border for us. So I

Brian Nichols  18:33  
was listening to a another podcast on my former network, the we are libertarians Podcast Network, and my buddy Chris Bengal was interviewing another young voices contributor, ironically enough, coincidentally, coincidentally enough, that's the term. And I forget the lady's name, and forgive me, whoever that that guest was, but I believe she herself was an immigrant. I think from South America. Again, I could be wrong, and the conversation was very much built around the idea of birthright citizenship and the 14th Amendment. And it sounded like she was coming down much more on the side of, we need birthright citizenship. We can't just go in and completely change birthright citizenship. And I know a question was asked about welfare, and, um, she actually made the argument saying, Well, I think there should be some welfare for a new, uh, new immigrants, especially when they're trying to, you know, get their feet on the ground, get their lives established. And I know what she was talking about, more of like, you know, the fact that, if I'm a new immigrant, I have trouble just getting a job right and actually paying for my my life, my life, my family. You know, all that that goes within just living a life. But I guess, you know, it is interesting to hear that even from a more classically liberal standpoint, there are a lot of folks who they they do really hold tight to this idea of birthright citizenship. And I guess you know, David, do you find that the argument of birthright citizenship on its own, that it does hold merit, or do you think that there is absolutely some, some worthy discussion looking at birthright citizenship? But. Specifically, when we're looking at the tonality that and the context of when it was written, right, which I think it's fair to state it was written to make it very clear that if you are a an African American, if you're a black slave here in the States posts of a war, that you are an American, right? It wasn't meant to be, Hey, anybody who's coming over from from China, the Middle East, or wherever it may be, and you have a kid here that, that kid's an American citizen. I don't think that was at all the intent. But I mean, that's my perspective. Do you think I'm off base? Do you think we're worthy of having this debate right now, and does it make you a bad person for wanting to have this conversation? Gosh darn it, because all of a sudden I'm questioning whether or not people are citizens. That's the debate. I've heard at least David, what say you?

Speaker 1  20:41  
Yeah, no, I the way you frame it, I think is right. It is the question of birthright citizenship really was meant to address the problem of of slaves, black slaves, or black former slaves in the United States, the idea that if you were born here, then you are, in fact, an American citizen. It that ruling or that interpretation changed at the turn of the century. I can't remember the exact date to include anybody who's born here on American soil is automatically a citizen. It reinterprets that law in a way that I don't think is faithful to the original law. So I do think that it's up for I think, I think that it's fair game to bring that up as a legitimate question, because you also do, and I know I've met people personally who do come over here to United States for the sole purpose of having a child here so they can stay here and work, so that that, I think, also creates an incentive for them to Want to break the law. The other question is, well, shouldn't they have, shouldn't they have some sort of welfare system to help get them started? I think that's more of a reflection of the fact that we've had such a decline in civil associations in the United States. You're here in the in his classic book, Democracy in America, Alexis de Tocqueville talked about the role that civil society affiliations or associations played in Americans lives, that they serve as this buffer between individuals and the state. So whatever association that they were a part of, whether it's a church or some sort of club, these organizations or institutions helped people come to the United States and helped them get started. That really is just lost in the United States, and we don't have a strong tradition currently, at least, or we we have a tradition. We don't really have a strong presence of using that tradition of civil associations to help us get our feet started, we used to be much more charitable. I guess you could say in our desire to help people acclimate here, life was just hard, and we all had to really pitch in together, and nobody had to tell us to do that. And I really think that if we tapped into that old American spirit of wanting to help each other and help people right as they show up on our shores. That would really mitigate the need for welfare programs. And I think that that's more of a reflection of that.

Brian Nichols  23:15  
Amen, I can't agree more. David, we are already hard pressed for time, so that means we're gonna go ahead and start to wrap things up here. So what I would like to do, like to do is, first of all remind you that this is part one of a conversation we're absolutely gonna have you back on the show, especially to dig more into the immigration topics in the future. But I do think you know, overarching theme here today, right? It is, we have to as members of the public, we have to start representing that which we want our society to become, right? So it comes down to us starting to do things in our own lives. And I look, you know, at where we can make the most impact. It's your local community. So if you are in your local community, get involved. Go get involved at the was it the Moose Lodge or the Knights of pathias or the Elks club, like, just go be a part of your community. Do something to start getting involved and to start helping right, like, if it's a food charity or a food bank, or you're volunteering your time to be a mentor to an up and coming kid, right, like, whatever it may be, just get involved. Start to build those communal bonds. Because even though you know we do absolutely agree in the ideas of individual liberty, of personal responsibility of individual autonomy that is a piece of the puzzle to the overarching, the overarching theme, which is, we are a society. We are a group of individuals who work together in a community. So don't think that you are just you know, you're on your own little island. You might be in your home, but when your home is a part of a community. Yes, be involved. Get involved and start to be the change you want to see in your community. That's my final thoughts. And with that, David, where can you go ahead? Or rather, where can folks go ahead and find you? You know, go ahead, bring us home here. Quick call to action, and, of course, give a quick shout out there to young voices. We've had a lot of guests here on the show from young voices. So David, with that, the floor is yours, or bring us

Speaker 1  24:58  
home. Thank you very much. For having Brian. It was great to be here. And people can find me on Twitter. I am at D Mendoza six two.

Brian Nichols  25:07  
Awesome. D Mendoza six two. And then young voices. Give us a shout for young voices,

Speaker 1  25:12  
yeah, you can find young voices also on Twitter, on Instagram, they are. They've been absolutely great to me, and I've, I've appreciated everything that they've they've done as far as helping me with my writing and connecting me with great shows, just such as yours,

Brian Nichols  25:27  
good stuff, man. Well, hey, like I said, this is part one of the conversation, so we'll make sure, David, we go ahead, have you back on the show in the near future. And folks, if you enjoy today's conversation, go ahead. Give it a share you do tag yours truly at B Nichols liberty. You can find me on Twitter, on Facebook, YouTube, Rumble, wherever it is. You consume your podcast content, your audio video content. You can find The Brian Nichols Show. Just do me a favor. Hit that little subscribe button, hit that little notification bell, and of course, head down below into the comments. I'm sure there are folks who are listening, who has some disagreements or even some agreements. Go ahead. Battle it out down there. Let us know your thoughts with that being said. Brian Nichols, signing off here on The Brian Nichols Show for David Mendoza, we'll see you next time. Bye.

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