966: Is Free Speech in DANGER on Campuses?

Unknown Speaker  0:00  
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Brian Nichols  0:06  
of focusing on winning arguments, we're teaching the basic fundamentals of sales and marketing and how we can use them to win in the world of politics, teaching you how to meet people where they're at on the issues they care about. Welcome to The Brian Nichols Show. Well, hey there, folks. Brian Nichols here, another fun filled episode of Yes, The Brian Nichols Show. I am, as always, your humble host, joining you from our lovely cardio miracle Studios here in not so sunny, but still lovely, Eastern Indiana. The Brian Nichols Show is powered yes by the best heart health supplement in the world, cardio miracle, if you want to learn how to lower your resting heart rate, lower that blood pressure, while also improving your pump at the gym, with the secret that is nitric oxide, stick around. We're going to talk about that more in today's episode later on, but first we're going to talk all things free speech. Specifically looking at free speech on campus, we see a lot of colleges universities right now going through and trying to put in place some speech laws in the name of anti protecting students from anti semitism. But are these colleges going too far? A lot of folks in the more libertarian camp say yes. A lot of folks in just the more free speech camp say yes. And yet, there are some folks who are more in the political right and, for that matter of political left who are saying, no, they're not going far enough. So let's discuss all that and more. Joining me here on the show today to discuss that from young voices, is Jerry. Regip, Jerry, welcome to The Brian Nichols Show.

Unknown Speaker  1:30  
How you doing? I'm doing well, Brian, thanks for having me.

Brian Nichols  1:33  
Great to have you, Jerry. Looking forward to today's conversation, but first, do us a solid Introduce yourself here to The Brian Nichols Show audience, and by the way, the case study that we're gonna be focused gonna be focusing on is actually in both of our backyards in Indiana University. So Jerry looking forward to digging into that. But yeah, go ahead and just give a quick intro. Who are you and why do you focus so much on this whole free speech thing?

Speaker 1  1:56  
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Brian. My name is Jerry red. I'm a second year law student here at Indiana University, Mauer School of Law. I'm a Chicago land native, and I'm a proud supporter of the First Amendment and all things free speech. I in a prior life, before law school, I used to work in education policy. I was a middle school teacher for a couple of years, and I really started to get into free expression, free speech and civic solidarity during my time in Washington, DC, especially during the middle of a COVID pandemic, midst of the 2020 presidential election, you just saw a lot of division and discord, and I became really intimately interested in Ways to promote better discussions amongst different American communities, and certainly the First Amendment has a lot to say, has a lot to suggest and a lot to recommend by way of that. And so that's sort of how I got into it. I've been passionate about it ever since, and I've been taking every opportunity to write, think and speak on these kinds of issues ever since.

Brian Nichols  2:58  
Love it. Awesome. Jerry, well, let's continue in that spirit, and let's talk about some of these free speech issues. And let's use Indiana University here as a case study. Today, Indian diversity University has walked back some of what they call a controversial speech ban, but others are saying it's not far enough. Jerry, what is this controversial speech band just at the stage for us?

Speaker 1  3:22  
Yeah, absolutely. Let's maybe start with just some wider context. So in 2024 there were a host of college protests in universities across the country, mourning, celebrating or protesting against the one year invasion of Hamas' deadly attacks on Israel on October 7, and from that time period, protests erupted throughout the country on all different types of college campuses, private, public, in all different kinds of communities. From that point forward, you had a bit of a building up of tension on campuses as college administrators attempted to navigate the different safety concerns on campus while also respecting students constitutional rights. And so you folks might be familiar with headlines discussing students scaling buildings at Columbia University, students and professors getting arrested at the University of Texas or NYU. And so in the midst of all of this, we had our own protests here on Indiana's campus, going on here in Bloomington, Indiana. And in response to some of the things going on at other universities and other places in the country, our university chose to overnight, to change overnight our campus free expression policy, which effectively banned overnight camping. In the midst of the protest, students were arrested, faculty were cited, and it started this entire conversation about policy changes to Indiana's free speech policy and so. In the summer, there were talks with different stakeholders, and come August 2024 we had a new speech policy enacted, which was effectively an overnight ban on expression between the hours of 11pm and 6am so that's roughly where we are now, but we've had a host of other events leading up to that as well that we can get into later in the show,

Brian Nichols  5:23  
man, I'm gonna feel like an old fuddy duddy on the show, because I'm gonna, I'm gonna try to present objections. I'm sure you get hit with, and maybe it's because I am well over a decade and a half, uh, removed from joining a college campus. I really have not had to live in that environment for a long time. I'm a dad now, and I guess, to start off, you know, Jerry, I hear a quote, unquote ban of free speech activity between 11pm and 6am You mean when we're asleep? That sounds, that sounds like a good idea to start like, let's, let's not disturb the peace at a at a reasonable, uh, rather, not an unreasonable time, which is when everybody else is asleep. I mean, is that what the conversation is around, or is, at least, is that an argument of saying, Hey, listen, you're disturbing the piece we're talking about. You know, 2am you shouldn't be out having a college campus protest when you're not just trying to promote your speech now, but you're actually violating the rights of other folks who are attending this, this college, this college, university. Is that a fair argument, or am I my just an old man here? Jerry,

Speaker 1  6:29  
well, I'm going to give the prototypical legal answer and say it depends. I think on one hand it

Brian Nichols  6:34  
depends how old you are. Nichols, cheese, yeah,

Speaker 1  6:37  
I thought so. I think on one hand you have this idea that students who can't protest at night, there's a simple solution, protest during the day at the same time. You know the issue is with how the policy was written and how it's expressed itself. And so a university can enact reason, what's known in the legal community as reasonable time, place and manner restriction so a university, a public university, can regulate how students can engage in free expression on their campus. But the issue was when the policy was first amended or first enacted, something as simple as wearing a t shirt protesting the war in Vietnam as you're walking through campus late night, maybe at 11:05pm, could put you in violation of the policy. And so

Brian Nichols  7:30  
now that right there, that's goofball. That's goofball. Yes,

Speaker 1  7:35  
absolutely. I like that phrase, goofball. It is pretty goofy. It is pretty goofy.

Brian Nichols  7:40  
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I didn't mean to interrupt. I wanted to differentiate, at least, like, I'm hearing it as a protest of a group of folks out with signs chanting with a blow horn at two in the morning, like, free Palestine river Tennessee. Like, that's what I'm imagining, not some dude who's like, Hey, I just got back from my my, you know, nine to 11 shift at the family video. And I'm walking back home, and I just happen to have, you know, Don't tread on me shirt, right? Like that's, that's not who I think your average person is thinking of. They're thinking of the screeching banshees that we saw on college campuses in that post October 7 world.

Speaker 1  8:19  
Well, I think, I think it applies to both sorts of camps. And so what I will say is, I, I think policy should be clear. Just as a matter of general principle, people should know what rules they're supposed to follow and how they should go about following them. And so the initial policy was so unclearly written that it was unclear whether a person wearing a Don't tread on me t shirt at midnight, walking through campus at night, or two professors talking about education policy as they walk through the quad would be in violation of the policy. And so in November, Indiana actually amended its policy, and they provided some additional markers to give students fair notice of what's prohibited and what's not. But the policy is still unclear, and so the overnight expression policy states that things like protesting or making speeches are the types of activities that you can't do overnight. But the question remains, when does having a group of people talking about an issue of public concern turn from casual conversation into making a speech. When does, for example, I remember being on my college campus when the gosh, the miracle of the Cubs winning the World Series happened in my lifetime, and being out in streets and celebrating with hundreds of people because it was such a glorious time in the middle of the night. Does that qualify as a protest? Because there is a certain message that we're conveying for our pride, for our baseball team, and so the whole idea is, whether you're the person who's trying to hold a real raucous or loud protest at night, speaking your truth. Truth, or if you're just the person who's got a cool t shirt walking through the quad, you should have a clear understanding of what's allowed and what's not.

Brian Nichols  10:06  
And maybe, again, this is me being an old funny dutty Jerry, so keep me honest here, right? I view it as I call it the duck, the duck rationality. So like, if it walks like a duck and it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck, right? You celebrating the miracle that was the Cubs first World Series in, you know, 100 plus years that, I think, is quite obviously not a duck in this case, right? That's a goose. But when you look at the protests, specifically from, you know, the in this case, that the post January or the post October 7 slaughters there in Israel. I mean, that was the ultimate kind of reason that this became a national conversation. And those were ducks, right? Those were, they were quacking and getting into the water just like a duck would. And anybody with, I guess, a reasonable, reasonableness standard would look at the two and be able to differentiate a clear line of delineation, right? Like, okay, this is the duck and this is the goose, but this is the part where I think you have a really strong position here, and that is, if I'm a student, I need to know black and white, what is and is not considered, you know, Fair Grounds and and with that being said, we also need to make sure that as a public university that we're not stepping on any free speech rights that we are afforded as American citizens. So it is, it is definitely a fine line to walk. So I guess, with with that in mind, Jerry like, is there an argument like, let's I'll ask you, steel man, my side of the argument, saying, Listen, I'm all about you being able to have free speech. I want you to be able to go out and protest your your political priors or promote your political priors. Go for it, right? But can we at least not do that between 11pm and 6am like, can we have some type of reasonableness? And I guess that's what it comes down to. Is this reasonableness, right? Your average person's like, listen, dude, I don't, I don't know. I'm worried about paying the groceries. You're worried about going and protesting for for Palestinian rights. Okay, go protest for Palestinian rights. Like, I'm not going to try to stop you from doing that. Oh, wait, you're doing it at two in the morning. Come on. Like, that's, that's where your average person is. Help help them. Um, I guess see the error in their ways, things that they're not considering. Help us out. Here. Is it the Cubs? The cubs perspective, you painted there? I'm not sure.

Speaker 1  12:37  
Well, I think there's a couple things there. I universities can can limit and restrict the ways in which students engage on speech in their campus. The what I am advocating for is merely clear policies, but when it comes to the nighttime argument, I mean, I think two things there. One, we're talking about an overnight ban on expression between the hours of 11pm and 6am I'm 29 I'll be 30 this upcoming September. I love my good night's sleep. And when that's violated, it's it's a rough day the next day. Just Just wait

Brian Nichols  13:10  
until you hit 30. Jeremy, even worse.

Speaker 1  13:14  
Yeah, I bought so I totally empathize with the argument of, look, you have something important and passionate embolden that you want to say, do it during the day. That's fine. What I will say is that in the context of other comparable laws that have limited expression overnight. So for example, let's think about child juvenile curfew laws. In the context of juvenile curfew laws, every single major federal circuit court decision that has analyzed the constitutionality of child juvenile curfew laws has said, even in the context of minors, you still have to have a carve out for otherwise First Amendment protected activity overnight for students who for kids who want to, I don't know, go and protest their principal who just suspended them overnight, kids who want to distribute flyers and things of the like. And so the issue there is in the context of legally consenting adults, tuition paying students on a college campus, perceivably, the First Amendment carve out would have to be there too, because if we need it in the context of minors, then you're probably going to need it in the context of

Brian Nichols  14:21  
adults. So is it, hmm, interesting. So it's not so much the Free Speech activity itself that we're talking about here. I think it's more of the disturbing the peace side of things. Is that more fair?

Speaker 1  14:36  
Well, I mean, whether you're engaging in a protest or some sort of campus demonstration during the night or the day, is almost not the focal point. It's you're still subject to all the other campus rules and regulations. And so when, when folks out there see the headlines of, you know, students scaling buildings or committing vandal. Ism or just blatantly, like disturbing the peace overnight. I mean, the those are subject to other rules and sanctions and violations on on a given campus, and so that in those scenarios, that's that's not free speech. You know, if you break a window and you break into a building, that's not free speech, that's vandalism, but the ability to speak your mind and express a viewpoint, whether it's during the day or during the night, ought to be constitutionally protected regardless of the time or day that it's expressed.

Brian Nichols  15:31  
So is that the and maybe this is it, Jerry, right, it sounds like more of and this is where I think a lot of folks more on the we're just going to bucketize a generalized conversation today, just for the sake of moving the conversation forward. But like folks on the right, have generally been much more against this idea of college campuses enabling this type of activity. I think what you're saying and actually my position, they actually they track together, as Gen Zs would say, right? Because if you look at what your position is saying. Hey, free speech activity should be allowed on campus regardless of the time of day. Yes, I agree. And I think to your other point of saying and there's other rules that are already in place that the colleges need to follow. This is where I think a lot of folks, from a perception standpoint, are they're conflating free speech. And what we're talking about today is that what we're talking about today is actually the result of not free speech, but rather campuses having rules in place, right? Like, you can't disturb the peace at, you know, two in the morning. You can't destroy these, these, these college buildings, you can't barricade yourself in the lunch hall, like you can't do that stuff, right? Like, but that's not free speech. That's a college abdicating their responsibility of enforcing their standards across all the students, regardless of their their politics, their their arguments, their their you know, whatever flag they're carrying into the campus commons that day. Like, if you're going to have colleges that are picking winners and losers based on specific policy there is, and I get it a knee jerk reaction from folks in the other side of the aisle saying, fine, then don't allow this at all. Right, let's, let's just, let's get rid of it across the board. I think the better argument would be, no, no, don't do that. Let's instead push college campuses to actually use the bully pulpit they have where they set these rules in place, and to actually be like, be consistent in their applications of these rules, not just picking favorites. When it's a political, you know, a political argument or a political ideology that is more in the political left, right, and by the way, like Jerry behind all of this, the other overarching issue is that a lot of folks in the politically right camp, they view colleges and universities as bastions of leftist lunacy, and they're like, of course, these college administrators aren't going to crack down on the goofballs who are protesting at two, three in the morning or causing all the destruction because they agree with them, right? And that's, I think, another area where a lot of the resentment, the frustrations are stemming from, what do you think?

Speaker 1  18:05  
Yeah, I mean, I think it's tough. I think it's as someone who finds the First Amendment to be as jam. It's, you know, free speech isn't, isn't a partisan issue, at least not supposed to be. And so there's this notion in free speech First Amendment jurisprudence. Of you know, folks are all for the First Amendment, protecting the First Amendment and promoting free expression when it's their side of the argument that is either being challenged or violated or pushed back on right and so there's this idea of free speech for me, but not free speech for thee. And so I, I'm for consistent to what you just said a moment ago, Brian, I'm for consistency. I'm for clarity. I'm for consistency, and I'm for, you know, first principles, and I think the First Amendment should apply to the college Republican president who's trying to bring in Ben Shapiro as much as it should apply to someone who's trying to protest the war in Gaza in whatever fashion that comes up. And so although you have these political sort of ideological frameworks in the background, I really think free speech and the First Amendment is one of those issues where you have a great deal of consensus among different groups of folks on different types of stakeholders, whether it's conservative organizations all the way to the most progressive organizations. And so to me, it's an American issue. It's not a political one.

Brian Nichols  19:33  
Yep. And Jerry, let me, you know, let me just for a moment, I think I over the past, you know, few years, especially, I found my role in this greater political world to be more of a libertarian translator for most folks, but also on the flip side right, taking the issues that your average person is maybe like an 8020 issue, and libertarians tend to argue in the 20. Is like trying to help libertarians understand that, hey, you might be right, but you're not going to win if you approach it in the 8020 mindset. And like to not focus on the goofball as the example that you're trying to lead forward as the rule, but rather try and help you know, try to find some common ground, not in pursuit of getting rid of first principles, or neglecting first principles, to your point, but rather taking the first principles, applying it to the very real issues that we're talking about on a daily basis, but then also being able to push back a little bit, not from a principal standpoint, but from an application standpoint, saying, hey, if we agree that the first amendment is paramount, right? Or you know, hey, Mr. Liberal who suddenly has embraced free trade, awesome. Let's talk about that. Because I want free trade across the board, and I'm actually looking at tariffs as a lever to pull to get us towards free trade, right? Not is as an ultimate means to an end, but in pursuit of this greater thing, is that not a good thing? Mr. Democrat, it is okay, awesome. Let's talk about that, versus just saying, free trade, good, tariff, bad. It's very easy to plant your flag and say, you know, this this thing is good, this thing is bad, this ism is good, this ism is bad. When you're you're approaching it from a black and white perspective. But I think one thing I've absolutely discovered as I've gotten older is that the world, if anything, is not black and white, but just infinite shades of gray. And to be able to try and pigeon hole black and white principles into very gray reality makes it very difficult to sell your ideas. So being able to lead with the black and white, but understanding that in order to sell that black and white, you have to be able to talk to the gray and make it fit into the gray. That is the challenge. And candidly, that's where a lot of folks in our camp talk about free speech absolutism, where they really have trouble. Because then this goes back to, you know, the ACLU back in the 50s and 60s, were allowing Nazis to do marches here in America, not because they were supporting Nazism, but rather they were supporting the principle of free speech, right? And there was a lot of backlash. But that was the point. Is that the backlash is, in fact, your ability to respond to the thing that you find so abhorrent. And when you look at colleges and universities, yes, it's one thing to say we should have this, this mentality of free speech as a an underlying first principle. But when you college, university, are picking winners and losers, where you are allowing college protests of, you know, just, not just folks supporting Palestine and the Palestinians, but rather folks who are openly supporting a terrorist organization like Hamas. And then, right, not, not even talking about that's good or bad. But then on the flip side, not allowing conservative commentators like Ben Shapiro or Charlie Kirk or Jordan Peterson come to a campus and speak to a an amphitheater of a couple 100 kids, because of campus safety, that's where your average person says, I call BS, right? I look at that, and I say, Aha, you're a liar, not you, Jerry, this is like the college campuses, right? And that's where your average person says, Fine, you know what? You don't want to play by rules that you say you're putting in place. Then I'm not going to either. And it turns into this tit for tap back and forth. But to your point, I think this is something that you know, as we go towards the second half the episode today, Jerry, we should find common ground, not you and I, but just when we're looking at the overarching theme here is that in order for us to move forward as a society, we do have to be willing and able to let people speak, especially those we disagree with, and not let the examples of private or not private. Of these in this case, public universities, you know, try to call balls and strikes No. Call them out when they're when they're being goofball, right? Like, if there's ever an instance of, you know, my former congressman from upstate New York, Elise Stefanik, I think one of her best examples of doing good at this was back after the October 7 attacks in Israel. She was on the Hill pushing, I forget, Claudine, gay, I think was her name that the president of Harvard and saying, like, no, if a student is on campus calling for the death of Jewish students, is that considered discrimination? And you can see, you know, Claudia and gay, like no, well, well, Congresswoman what we believe? And she's like, No, no, no, just answer the question. That's not necessarily a pursuit of a government pushing one perspective over the other. But I want to see these other, you know, these, these, these folks in education held to account, not necessarily from politicians. I don't like that, but like, let's say you want to promote free speech. Okay, get ready for free speech backlash, right? And let's have that battle. Don't, don't insulate yourself and think, Well, no, we can't. We can't be held accountable, because we are, you know, this prestigious organization and institution, I'll get off my soapbox. Jerry, what's your feedback?

Speaker 1  24:46  
Well, I think it's all good. Brian, I have, I love it all, you know, I'm reminded of the age old quote. It's, you know, I may disagree with what you have to say, but I'll defend your right bolt hair full. Yeah. That's right, yes. And which, by

Brian Nichols  25:01  
the way, the only reason I remember that is because the old movie, the princes diaries, they're talking about Voltaire, and the one girl is talking about how Anne Hathaway's hair looks beautiful now. And she's like, Voltaire, the hair man, I'm going back to like, what 1999 I think that was, and that movie came out. I digress. Continue. Jerry, no.

Speaker 1  25:17  
And I think, you know, there's, there's a lot of great organizations out there that are moving the discussion forward in this space. You know, I can shout out the Foundation for Individual Rights and expression fire. You know, the several others that are just really doing great work in talking about these issues, dispelling myths and sharing truths about what it means to promote, protect and support the First Amendment. And I think right now is a really ripe time. There's a lot of free speech issues going on. It seems like there's something new every day, both on college campuses and out in the world. And I think there's no better time right now than to really be engaged with this work,

Brian Nichols  25:55  
agreed, Jerry, well, and as we go towards the tail end of the episode here, you know one thing, I think, where your average person is, Jerry is they're tired of they're tired of this, say one thing and then do another. Mentality they've been lectured to, especially over the past 10 years. You have, you know, the metoo movement. You have this embrace of Dei, of ESG, and this, you know this, this mentality of sit down and shut up, right? Like, how dare you think that you can question us? And then, you know, when folks do start to speak up, you see folks use anti free speech, like means and methods to silence people. And then on the other side, they're like, oh, but we'll allow cities to be burned down, like Minneapolis during the Black Lives Matter protest because, well, they're on our side, right and like that right there, I think, is where your average person, they're just they're done. And by the way, Jerry, this is where I get concerned, because as soon as your average person's like, Fine, you're gonna punch me. I'm gonna punch you, and I'm gonna punch back harder. And it just turns into this battle where you're always trying to have one up on on the other side. That is nothing but a slippery slope to sadness, right? And I don't want to see America go down that pathway, but I understand why. And if we aren't willing to get out of our own like this is how it should be mentality, and actually get into the real world and understand this is why people are addressing a certain issue in a certain way, we're just going to keep on trying to offer prescriptions to symptoms and problems that we don't fundamentally understand. It's like you're trying to use Advil to fix a heart attack. Like, okay, it's a medicine, but it's not fixing the root issue. And I think the root issue here, Jerry isn't so much a free speech issue, but rather a consistency perspective, a consistency issue. Like, I don't trust you. Person on the left, and then on their side, they're saying, I don't trust you, person on the right. And it's that lack of trust. How do we save that? Can we save that?

Speaker 1  27:50  
Well, I think it starts. And you know, I've read tons of studies about civic decline and social trust, both in institutions and just amongst neighbors of different political parties. It's a tough time right now. At the same time, though, I think relationships build trust, and trust is built over time, and I think the more opportunities and the more ability that people, whether it's students or whether it's your Uncle Joe, who's doing his lawn out on the street, the more opportunities we have to come together and talk and discuss, not only the easy issues, but the tough issues. I think the better it is, and you'll see, you know, people build back trust that maybe is been in decline for quite some time. But I think the more opportunities those people have to just talk and come together, I'll wax Bob Putnam here, the more opportunities we have to bowl together. I think is the better is the better move? Yeah,

Brian Nichols  28:48  
well, and by the way, like elephant in the room, when you look at what happened during COVID, what a great example of things like blowing us apart, right? You know you're being told that your your neighbor, is, is possibly deadly, right? With a a disease that they don't know they have. Oh no, right? Like that. That was, what a way to destroy the fabric of of our of our civilization is, is trying to make it so your family, your friends, like that. They are a threat to you, even if they aren't a threat, right? Like that mentality, and by the way, there are folks who still, to this day, live as though COVID is going to be the biggest boogeyman to get them. And I'm just like that, that person mentally is broken. And you look at how you know when, when you when you break pieces of a system, how there is this just belief that, well, we can just skip over that broken piece, and things down the road, they'll they'll still work the same. Nope. Not the case at all. As a matter of fact, we see to this day from an economic standpoint, just the issues with supply chains, just from COVID Right now, look at, you know, the destruction of your communities, your your civic organizations, right? Your volunteer organizations. They are hemorrhaging support right now. Because those foundations were crushed during COVID. And if we pretend that that didn't happen and just keep on going back to like moving on as though we're still in the same path that we were in 2019 we are sorely, sorely mistaken. So Jerry, do this bring us home today. Final Thoughts on your end. What do you think will be the ultimate outcome from this conversation around IU Do you see college campuses starting to embrace free speech with some parameters? Do you see maybe at the very least some consistency in the applications of these rules? Floor is yours, Jeremy, bring us home.

Speaker 1  30:35  
Yeah, there's a current, ongoing legal case concerning the viability of Indiana speech policy right now, I'm not sure how that case is going to shake up, but there's still ongoing discussions on campus about how to make the policy better. Folks are weighing in our student body, our the student body president of Indiana's University sent out a a forum where folks can offer feedback the efficacy of the policy. And so I'm optimistic. I think I see our campus moving forward. I think you've seen a lot of student groups on campus really trying to promote free expression by either talking about issues of public concern or hosting co sponsored events by left leaning and right leaning organizations on campus. I think nationwide, this has become a very hot button issue, both on college campuses and in the broader discussion in the country, and so I remain, I would say I'm a realist optimist, and remains to be seen how a lot of these issues will wrap up, but I have a sense of optimism that the more we keep talking about these issues, the more people Keep talking about what's going on on college campuses, I think the better outcomes we'll see, yeah,

Brian Nichols  31:45  
well, and by the way, I've had our good friend Phil Magnus on the show here, and he was talking about the just discrepancy between more conservative leaning thought and more progressive leaning thought on college campuses. It's scary. And how many colleges, not only do they have this this discrepancy, they celebrate the discrepancy like that. Those are definitely issues that all are related to, this topic we talked about today that I think we just as a society, need to address. Or, you know, Jeremy, I'm just gonna say it, maybe we're seeing the end of your traditional college university structure, right? Like, you know, as the online world grows more and more and as folks are able to access this information, not from, you know, only these, these hoity toity college professors and their ivory towers, but rather, I can go on to YouTube and watch, you know, a four part lecture on a certain topic that I'm super passionate about, and I can get that, you know, and not have to spend 10s of 1000s of dollars to an organization that hates my guts, right? Like, I think you're gonna see more people go down that route. And also, folks were just saying, Hey, I don't need college. College isn't for me. I want to be a sales guy, or I want to be a tradesman, or I want to do X, Y and Z. That doesn't require some degree to show that I did something at some place like the value of college degrees has really gone down relative to what they used to represent, even just as recently as the late 2010s back when I was on campuses, I know I would do the tours and stuff, and we talk about job placement after after graduation, and that was, like, a big metric. I see a lot more right now folks saying, Yeah, I don't really need a college degree. And as a matter of fact, you know, when I hire people Jerry, I don't ask them anymore if they have a college degree, because that used to tell me something. It would tell me, hey, this person went to this school and they got, you know, they got all these classes and coursework done in pursuit of achieving this degree, and this degree represents competency in that specific area. That doesn't mean anything to me now, because I don't know what your degree actually represents. Does your your degree represent, you know, hard work, energy and effort spent in learning and pursuing the understanding of that topic, or is it a degree you get after taking a bunch of goofball courses like gender studies or, you know, lesbian dance theory or stuff like that. It just doesn't hold the same weight. So for my final thoughts today, I think what we're seeing, Jerry is a transition away from the traditional university, college environment that we grew up with and that you're still living through. And I think what we're going to see is, you know, the next 1015, 30 years, whatever it may be, I think we're gonna see a drastic reduction in students actually going to these universities and instead embracing alternative forms of education, or in other instances, just saying, the heck with it. I don't need your piece of paper to tell people that I'm good at what I do, my actions will show that for you know, what I am able to build or or bring to the table from value. So that's my final thoughts. We're gonna go ahead put a pin in today's conversation. Jeremy, there's been a great a great chat. I really appreciate you taking some time here on a Saturday to record with me. Do us a favor. I want folks to be able to go ahead and reach out to you. Should they want to learn more, or, heck, even continue the conversation off. Air. So Jerry, where can folks go ahead ping you. Find you on social media, all that fun stuff. Absolutely,

Speaker 1  35:05  
I'm pretty easy to find. Thank you for having me. Brian, I'm very active on my LinkedIn. That's why I post all of my broadcast media or op eds for young voices. So just Jerry with a G, regip, R, E, G, E, P, very easy to find, always open to chat

Brian Nichols  35:22  
Jerry with a G. Love it, Jerry, it has been a great conversation. Thank you for joining us. And folks, if you got some value from today's conversation, which I know you did, please go ahead and reach out to Jerry. Give him some love. And when you do tag yours truly at B Nichols liberty, you can find me on X, on Facebook and on Instagram. The Brian Nichols Show is also a video and audio show. So if you want to go ahead and check us out in your favorite video platforms, head over to YouTube, Rumble, Twitter or Facebook. But by the way, make sure you hit that subscribe button, because we do air our shows live on Mondays and Friday nights. At 8:30pm the stream goes live. 9pm the show itself goes live. So make sure you've hit that subscribe button. Zoom. It says, single time we have a new episode going live. Or if you're like me, you'd like to take your podcast on the go. Head over to your favorite podcast platform, like Apple podcast Spotify, YouTube music. I like podcast attic, wherever it may be. Hit. Subscribe to The Brian Nichols Show, which, by the way, is the only place you can find all of our 960 plus other episodes, because, as I mentioned on my my previous conversation with with Alec Rosato there YouTube, they don't really like some of the stuff we talked about during COVID. They don't like free speech Jerry and they made it very well known when they decided to demonetize the show and then threaten to cancel the show on YouTube. So we had to remove a lot of episodes there from YouTube. So if you want to check those out, head over. The only place you can find that podcast catchers or Brian Nichols show.com otherwise, feel free to reach out to me. Email me Brian at Brian Nichols show.com send over your listener questions. I will make sure when we do our one on one conversations, I will go ahead and answer those, but I'm gonna go ahead and say goodbye today, Jerry, thank you for joining us. And folks, thank you for joining us. That being said. Brian Nichols, signing off here on The Brian Nichols Show for Jerry regip, we'll see you next time. Bye.

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